what does it mean to be english/Irish/German....?

[rachelwitty]

following on from the "should supermarkets be closed on good friday" (http://www.friendscircle.co.uk/showthread.php?t=671) discussion i thought i'd best start a new thread to continue another discussion without wanting to hijack the original debate.

i guess the debate is what does it mean to be english? Should we be tolerant of a multicultural society or fight for our rights to remain "english"? (this can go for almost any country really not just the uk btw). How do you feel about immigration?

[Deb]

following on from the "should supermarkets be closed on good friday" (http://www.friendscircle.co.uk/showthread.php?t=671) discussion i thought i'd best start a new thread to continue another discussion without wanting to hijack the original debate.

i guess the debate is what does it mean to be english? Should we be tolerant of a multicultural society or fight for our rights to remain "english"? (this can go for almost any country really not just the uk btw). How do you feel about immigration?

I think if we are to be a true multicultural country then all cultures should live in complete harmony and should be given due respect including what it means to be English. What seems to be happening in this country at the moment (and not wishing to appear racist), is that English is downplayed at the expense of other cultures.

There was a time when we colonised the world but unfortunately I can see a situation where things are turned on it's head and we are the colonised.

I guess it's an inevitable part of giving everyone's religion and culture free reign.

[Mark]

following on from the "should supermarkets be closed on good friday" (http://www.friendscircle.co.uk/showthread.php?t=671) discussion i thought i'd best start a new thread to continue another discussion without wanting to hijack the original debate.

i guess the debate is what does it mean to be english? Should we be tolerant of a multicultural society or fight for our rights to remain "english"? (this can go for almost any country really not just the uk btw). How do you feel about immigration?

Firstly, respect to you for opening up this topic for debate. Most people in the UK seem to be afraid to voice a genuine opinion on the subject, as they seem to feel intimidated and gagged by the 'thought police' of the politically correct establishment.

Fortunately I am not politically correct in any way, shape or form and I have no concern about voicing an opinion, in a thoughtful and intelligent way I hope :)

'Englishness' is a very difficult thing to quantify these days, especially as over the past fifty years or so, the liberal left elite have tried to eradicate all trace of an English identity from the native people. I well remember, not all that long ago either, when the flying of the English flag would bring down accusations of being a racist and a bigot. Even local government establishments banished the flying of the English flag because they saw it as a racist symbol. Is it little wonder that the English no longer know who they are? Defining ones identity can be tricky but the science of genetics have made the process easier.

If one had to put a finger on what it means to be English, then it would be a tribal definition. It would be the descendents of the Norse and Saxons whose language we now speak ( and yes, the Normans were Norse who had adopted the Norman French language, which is still spoken by a few people in the Channel Islands today). The fusing of the old West Saxon lands and the Danelaw created what has become modern England. The Celts of Kernow (Cornwall) still do not think of themselves as English, even if they are on the official territory of England.

Most of the modern European nation states trace their origins to a tribal grouping. They are defined by a common racial, genetic and linguistic bond. The nation states of the New World and the Old Commonwealth may define themselves in a different way as they have fused a population from a diverse tribal mix, although cemented together by one common language.

As for myself, my paternal heritage is Welsh (Celtic) - the original inhabitants of what is now England before they were displaced by the incoming Saxons. My maternal heritage is Norse, from Viking settlers on the border country of England and Scotland and I have a direct descent from Clan Kerr ... one of the Norse/Norman raiding clans of the Scottish Lowlands.

I was born in England so am I English? Well my tribal and genetic history would probably say no, although my Norse descent could be claimed as part of the English tribal identity. But then the English/Scottish borderline in the border country changed on a regualr basis for centuries, and most of my Clan Kerr ancestors would have been born in Scotland.

Then of course there are those Kerr forebears of mine who went to Canada during the Lowland Clearances and did not return to the UK until just before the First and Second World Wars.

The thing I most certainly am is British. The definition of that is to be a descendent of the tribal groupings and nations that make up the Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. If one is a Celt/Gael, Norse, Saxon, Angle or Jute, then one is definitely British. In recent times though, the concept of being 'British' has been debased and devalued, just as Roman Citizenship was towards the end of the Empire of the West in the 5th century AD.

Immigration I had better babble on about in another post :-p

[Adrian]

Being Danish means nothing to me - in fact, people have often said to me, "if you hate this country so much, why don't you leave!". Which I would if it was possible!

I don't mind immigration as long as the people who already live here are taken care of - but I am very much against special treatment of foreigners. Or should I say, SOME foreigners, because it's only certain groups. I don't mind different cultures, as long as the laws and rights we have here are respected too - no matter what anyone's religion says. But I also think the same respect should be shown to those people who were born here and are proud of their roots and culture... and sadly, a lot of the immigrants we have here are really the worst racists and ignorants, but that's "invisible" to a lot of people, because we happen to be the pale ones and their skin is darker.

[Mark]

Arthur Wellesley - The Duke of Wellington .... victor at Waterloo in 1815, was very sensitive about his Irish birth, and the fact his family were of the Irish peerage. His father was Lord Mornington.

On one occasion when his Irish birth was raised he replied that 'being born in Ireland made him no more Irish than being born in a stable would have made him a horse'.

There again is the fact that being born in a particular country does not make one of that nation. A more modern example would be that of Sir Cliff Richard, who was born in India. I doubt anybody would have insisted that he was an Indian?

[Anja]

Wow, what does it mean to be German... well, if someone here says they're proud to be German, a lot of people will label them as racist/Nazi etc. There are in fact a few things in this country I feel proud of, cultural as well as political (health care, social services, education system, arts...). Hmmm, maybe "proud" isn't the right word, actually I'm just glad I'm living in a country that takes care of its citizens like this. Unfortunately, there are so many people taking advantage of this system, and German bureaucracy thwarts itself when attempting to sort them out.
Our culture is very much influenced by other countries, due to immigrants as well as the media. If you try to remember your roots, Third Reich history crops up first. At least this is what it's like for people of my generation and the older ones. I guess it's the task of the following generations to build up a new culture, it's a slow process.

[Adrian]

Wow, what does it mean to be German... well, if someone here says they're proud to be German, a lot of people will label them as racist/Nazi etc.



If you try to remember your roots, Third Reich history crops up first. At least this is what it's like for people of my generation and the older ones. I guess it's the task of the following generations to build up a new culture, it's a slow process.

I've noticed that too... seeing it from the outside, it's like Germans almost have to apologize for being German, and that's really sad. Your country is so much more than the place where Hitler was born.

[Anja]

I've noticed that too... seeing it from the outside, it's like Germans almost have to apologize for being German, and that's really sad. Your country is so much more than the place where Hitler was born.

Yes, I know! It's kind of as if to the rest of the world, we're still the bad guys. Just look at the movies. In every James Bond there's an evil German, or so it seems. :rolleyes:
The thing is, when you grow up you are aware of this. You learn something terrible had happened in your country's past, and the more you learn and the older you get, the more you wonder if you should like your country or not. It's always so surprising for me when a foreigner tells me they love Germany or want to learn German etc. I'm always like: What? But we're the bad guys! :lol:
Like I said, I think a lot more time has to pass before this feeling of guilt will vanish. I know there are a lot of good things about my country, but the shadow is still there.

[Brenda]

Yes, I know! It's kind of as if to the rest of the world, we're still the bad guys. Just look at the movies. In every James Bond there's an evil German, or so it seems. :rolleyes:
The thing is, when you grow up you are aware of this. You learn something terrible had happened in your country's past, and the more you learn and the older you get, the more you wonder if you should like your country or not. It's always so surprising for me when a foreigner tells me they love Germany or want to learn German etc. I'm always like: What? But we're the bad guys! :lol:
Like I said, I think a lot more time has to pass before this feeling of guilt will vanish. I know there are a lot of good things about my country, but the shadow is still there.
You really think that? :unsure:
I don't think your country is evil, it just made some unfortunate decisions in the past (and still in the present, although not that big if you know what I mean)

[Anja]

You really think that? :unsure:
I don't think your country is evil, it just made some unfortunate decisions in the past (and still in the present, although not that big if you know what I mean)

Yes, a lot of people of my generation think like that, that's why political correctness is so important here. I know that it's probably paranoid, but I'm just trying to describe what it's like to grow up with our history.
There are probably a lot of people who don't feel like this.

[Mark]

You really think that? :unsure:
I don't think your country is evil, it just made some unfortunate decisions in the past (and still in the present, although not that big if you know what I mean)

The decisions were really made for Germany at the end of the First World War. Reparations bankrupted the nation and gave it hyper inflation, and high unemployment and awful social conditions provided fertile ground for the National Socialist Party.

Hitler was a product of his time, a powerful orator that struck a chord both with the working class and the industrialists. Nationalism was the vehicle by which Germany was made strong again, but unrestrained by the disarming and appeasing powers of Europe, the Third Reich became an engine for conquest.

Modern Germans have nothing to feel guilty about, but they can certainly take a pride in what they have achieved since the end of the Second World War. In fact, Germany probably now needs to be much more assertive than it is in many ways.

[jason_andrew_relva]

I was born in the North of England to a family who (on the paternal side) has barely resided outside of the county where I grew up for as long back as anyone can trace - my maternal side is more fun with my grandfather being from Scottish roots and my gran being Irish/Norse I think).

Anyway does this make me English? I've never considered myself to be particularly 'English', I always found it slightly weird to see people fanatically proud of their country when all I see is that it's complete chance we are born in one country and not another.

[Mark]

Anyway does this make me English? I've never considered myself to be particularly 'English', I always found it slightly weird to see people fanatically proud of their country when all I see is that it's complete chance we are born in one country and not another.

It seems that more and more people these days are taking an interest in their roots because they no longer feel a part of the country they are in. They feel cut adrift from their country, a foreigner in it.

We are all the products of our ancestry and many people are rediscovering their roots and taking a pride in who they are and where they are from.

Tribal pride is taking the place of national pride and with a bit of luck, it may bring back pride in the family unit once more. However, too much looking back over ones shoulder to the past means that we are detatching ourselves form the present, and that is socially dangerous.

[Y.Werther]

Wow, what does it mean to be German... well, if someone here says they're proud to be German, a lot of people will label them as racist/Nazi etc. ..... If you try to remember your roots, Third Reich history crops up first. At least this is what it's like for people of my generation and the older ones.

Really, that is sad.

It tend to see them as almost two different worlds, with Germany being so much more then a short little period. Personally there is a lot about Germany that i find to be very impressive.